16 replies to this topic

[wakeylad]

Hi:

Since additives (color/fragrance,etc) can affect the wick selection for a particular candle, I'm assuming that out-of-the-box wax should burn more consistantly with a particular jar/wick combination. Therefore, I'm wondering what other chandlers use as their favorite wick for IGI 4630 wax in the following Jars:

12oz Libbey Status Jar (this is the one I'm most interested about)
8oz Libbey Status Jar
31oz Libbey Apothecary
22oz Libbey Apothecary
15oz Libbey Apothecary
8oz Libbey Apothecary
5oz Libbey Apothecary

The above are the actual jar sizes not the amount of wax they hold. For example, I fill the 12oz Status jar with 9oz of wax. The 31oz Apothecary is equivalent to the YC 22oz candle.

If figured that knowing what works with the base wax would be a good starting point when starting to add fragrance and color. Most of the wick size information I've found is for fragranced candles but I can seem to find anything just the plain wax.

If you have the same curiosity but with different wax/jar combinations, please cut and paste this posting with that wax/jar type so we can keep the threads cleaner.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

The size of wick you need is determined by the diameter of the container you are using. You want a wick that will create a full melt pool on the entire top of the candle. If your container is four inches in diameter, it doesn't matter if it hold ten ounces of wax or forty ounces of wax. The wick needs to melt the wax on the surface. Does this make sense to you? I hope I'm explaining it okay. You want to start your wick selection based on recommendations for the diameter of the candle. You may have to chage you wick size (wick up or wick down) depending on the color & fragrance oil you chose. You have to test each fragrance & color. No tried & true formula. It's all done by testing. Make sure to keep detailed records for yourself!!! You definitely don't want to have to test more than once. I found the following chart. Hope it helps you find a starting point.

Lucy

Okay, the chart didn't copy correctly. Try these as starting points:

HTP-13 Tea Lights
HTP-31 1-1/2" to 2"
HTP-41 2"
HTP-52 2 to 2 1/2"
HTP-62 2 1/2"
HTP-73 2 1/2" - 2 3/4"
HTP-83 2 3/4" - 3"
HTP-104 3" - 3 1/2"
HTP-105 3 1/2" - 3 3/4"
HTP-1212 4"

Edited by Buttermilk Hill Primitives, 01 March 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

Thanks for your input. I'm looking for a starting point for plain old "out of the box" wax with no additives particularly for the 4630A wax using the 12oz Status/Metro jar. I would assume that if everyone used the same wax/container then they would pretty much be using the same wick for that combination (without fragance, etc). I think your chart, in my opinion, verifies that, since, Im seeing the best results with this combination using the HTP series.

I've heard that this particular wax is known to smoke/soot and also that the Status/Metro jars are hard to wick. I figured that getting a clean burn with plain wax in a particular container would be easier to identify wax/wick batches that are not up to par should a bad batch situation arise.

Lucy, do you aim for a full melt pool on the first burn? So far, none of the wick I've tested have achieved this with the 12oz Status/Metro jar. I also read on candlecocoon.com that you shouldn't expect a fully melt pool until you've burn down 1". What are your thoughts on this? I'm burning between 3 and 4 hours each evening, so basically once a day.

I really appreciate the reply.

Thanks in advance.

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Sorry for the delay. Busy week!!! Yes, aim for a full melt pool on the first burn. Generally this should take an hour per inch in diameter. For example, if your jar is four inches wide, hopefully you will have a full melt pool in four hours. You may need to wick up if you aren't getting the full melt pool. It has also been said that wax has a memory. So if you don't acheive a full melt pool the first time, you are likely to get tunneling as the next burns will tend to follow the path of the first burn. I find this to be true sometimes (especially with pillars), but not always. Hope this helps!

Lucy

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

Thanks again for the reply and I appreciate you taking time to answer since you are having a busy week.

I haven't reach a full melt pool on any wick that I've used. Since I'm new to wick testing I wanted to find my own footing and decided to basically test all the wicks in as many ranges as I could find so I could get the experience to better determine an underwicked and an overwicked candle. The made wickless candles and so I could stick my wicks in later using a skewer. I first tried the CD's. Anything over a 12 smoke like a chimney - literally swirls of thick black smoke rising into the air. Through the process of elimination, I'm now down to a CD-4, 5 and 6 still being on the table. They still smoked but yesterday, on their 8th burn, they stop smoking all together.I could blow on them and got not even a whiff of smoke. Amyway, through more elimination I got to testing the HTPs, only the two sizes above 93 smoked on the first burn. The 93 started smoking pretty badly on the second burn and I had to trim the wick to 1/8". They were the best burners but still had some sooting on the side. Then I finally got to setting up some jars with LX wicks. Everything from 8 through to 22 amd they all burned without smoking on the first burn which was encouraging. The first set of wicks I've used that didn't smoke. However, the 22, according the Lonestar Candles is for 3.75"-4.0" containers whereas mine are only 3" (straight sides) and no wick as of yet, in any line or size, has given me a full melt pool. Also, on the 3rd burn the LX-18 start to jump and give off smoke.


Now I'm starting to think it could be the wax. I bought it in the summer of 2009 and never got to use it until this past few weeks. The past summer it was in my garage the whole time and I noticed the box was pretty much all grease-stained from the wax since it's not wrapped in plastic. I'm starting to wonder if this grease seepage somehow affected the quality of the wax. Or maybe, since the jar is straight sided, there is not enough heat retension compared to apothecaries and such.

Anyway, I have four brand new cases and the wax did look a little different in these boxes. Two of my friends were begging for a candle and I finally wanted to make something with some fragrance. I made two with the with HTP-83's and the cold throw was amazing.

I'm going to pour a couple few more this evening with the new wax and may try a LX-18, HTP-83, CD-10 and and ECO-8. If I get a full melt pool or the CD-10 or the ECO-8 doesn't smoke then I know that there is something different about the wax.

Sorry about the long message and thanks for your previous replies.

I'll let you now how these new samples do.

Thanks again

Neil

[wakeylad]

Lucy,

By the way, when I write off the cuff, I don't see my own mistakes -- spelling or grammar -- while writing. For some reason, they stick out like a sore thumb when I read then next day. I'm looking at a few right now.

Thanks

Neil

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

It was the wax!!! Something must've happened to it while in the garage, so I guess wax can go bad. None of the containers I made with the new batch smoked, even with a gentle blow across the top of the container as a little encouragement.

That's two weeks testing that I can forget about but the experience was well worth it.

Thanks for your advice and the wick size listing.

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Great! I'm so glad this worked for you! I wonder what happened to that wax in the garage. Was your new wax also IGI 4630? How was your hot throw? I was using the WSP sp wax, but it was recently discontinued. I dread the thought of doing all of my testing again! I want to stick with a parasoy blend & am considering the IGI vintage blend. I like a clean burn with great scent throw. What candle maker doesn't, right? Enjoy your new hobby. Are you going to make a go at selling them? You are definitely well on your way to success - very meticulous & determined!

And welcome to this forum. You will find some of the most talented, helpful people here! This is the forum I turned to when I began making candles. And after reading everyone's posts on CP soap for the past three years, I finally made the plunge into that about three weeks ago too. Addictive!!!

Again, sorry for the delay in the reply. I have four kids & they don't have school today or tomorrow. They definitely keep me busy:)

Lucy

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

Yes, my new wax is also the 4630. I actually used the old box to play around with colors and got very good results. I knew I needed more wax for testing so ordered 4 cases. Now I'm getting clean burns with the new wax I'm very happy. I've not started my real fragrance oil testing yet. Right now I'm testing to see which wick works best with my containers without any additives so I can get within a three wick range for each container size. Your chart is amazingly close. The HTP-83 in the 3" container did smoke, but I think that will rectify itself once I start adding additives since I know smoking is caused by more fuel getting to the wick than can be burned. Additives should slow this down. I'm guessing without any additives I'll end up being a wick size down as a starting point. Which basiclally looks like, for a 3 wick range, your wick suggestion plus one size below and one size down. Is that your own chart or did you find it off the web? One thing I did notice, there was no HTP-93 in your list. Was that intentional or did it not copy over correctly.

By the way, I did get pestered by two friends for candles and finally gave in an made a 2-1/2 inch with a HTP-63 and a 3" with a HTP-83. I gave them the customary warnings about burning an untested candle. However, the cold throw was out of this world. They the smell so much that they don't want to light them.

Where abouts in PA are you located? I live in New York but I get to North East PA most summer weekends (between Scranton and Binghamtom). I'm not sure how much I'll be up there this year since I am hoping to start selling the candles at some point. Although I'll probably be able to save on shipping and stop of at some wholesalers while in PA. I don't know how you have the time to do all your testing with the kids. I'm the oldest of five so I know you've got your hands full with four.

As it happens, I've just finished up today's testing. I do have another question that came up during today's test regarding soot residue on a container that's nearly down to the bottom. One of the candles did smoke a little when I lit it and I made a note of that, but it didn't seem to smoke after the first 5 minutes. However, I wiped the inside of the glass after the wax cooled and there is some minor soot residue on the paper towel. I know a 100% clean burn would be ideal but what does the average candle look like after a full burn?

Anyway, thanks for the welcome. Don't worry about the time it takes to reply. Look at me. I didn't respond for a whole week. I guess it works out good since I have more time to absorb the knowledge.

Thanks again for the response.

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Hi again! I have a sick one home with strep throat & bronchitis. This is his third day home. I'm guessing he'll be going back to school tomorrow. There's never a dull moment around here! I've been trying my hand at cp soap lately, but haven't made nearly the amount I would like to. I won't take the chance of having lye sitting around when the kids are home. Summer vacation is just around the bend, so I guess I will be staying up late if I want to do any crafting! I live in northwestern PA between Pittsburg & Erie. I lived in Erie for several years & know North East well - such a beautiful area with the lake & all of the vineyards!

The chart I provided to you was from another supplier's site. Maybe they don't offer the 93 or I miscopied. Sorry if that was the case. As for your candle with the soot, if you only noticed it briefly when you first lit it, I wouldn't be too concerned. Especially since you haven't added any scent or color yet. Yes, it would be wonderful to always have a completely clean burn. I'd worry more about the test once you've added your fo & color. Then you need to decide which wick provides you the BEST burn. There isn't always a 'perfect' burn. The burn of a candle also greatly depends on the environment, too. If it is in a draft, if the wick wasn't trimmed, or if it is left to burn for too long, there is more of a liklihood of soot & smoke. That is why it is not only important to test, but also to educate your customers. Sounds like you are completely thorough:) And if they smell so good that your friends don't want to burn them, you have nothing to worry about:)

Lucy

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

I burnt a YC tonight for comparison purposes. I think I'm raising my bar too high. :-) That candle did produce a whiff of smoke on the first burn. Minor dancing of the flame but some of the wicks I used have nice steady flames. I think that's my main problem is not having anything to compare my burn to. Luckily I got a few YCs for $5.

I noticed that this YC candle said to trim the wick to 1/8". Maybe that how they are circumventing any smoking issues.

I hope your son feels better tomorrow.

Take care

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Yep, when you make them yourself you want perfection. When you look at what is already out there, they are no such thing. The last time I was in a YC store, there were wet spots galore! They have the advantage of being in the corporate world & having lots of products in lots of places. But I'm happy to continue hand-pouring & selling on a small scale. BTW, I keep my wicks trimmed as low as possible. It definitely cuts down on flickering & smoking.

And yes, my son feels better. But now another one has it!

Lucy

[wakeylad]

Lucy:

I know some of the old YC's I have used to say trim to 1/4" but the 7oz tumbers I got recently say 1/8". At this stage, if I can match their quality, I'll be happy. Then I can work on improving. I did analyze one of the wicks from a 7oz tumber and it looks like a paper core wick. I'll have to see if I can figure out which size they're using. Although, I have one on of their status jars and that looks like they're using a coreless in that jar. The thing is, the warning labels I ordered state to trim the wick to 1/4" and burn for 4 hours at a time so that's how I'm testing for now.

I've been testing with plain wax but did notice that I have to wick down with my wax once I add the FO. (I guess it lowers the melt point and builds up the melt pool faster). So, knowing that and knowing which wick burns best with the plain wax gives me a good starting point. I got some really good results with the Zinc wicks; nice even, round melt pools and next to no smoke except fpr the overwicked candles. The supplier I order most of the supplies from only has 4 sizes so I figured I'd just try them all. I ordered from a different supplier that carries 7 different sizes. I'm looking forward to trying those. I know they're notorious for mushrooming. I know some chandlers refer to that as a "fragrance blossom" that occurs in highly scented candles. They explain that it's an indication that either the candle was left burning too long and/or that the wick needs to be trimmed. I'm finding the the curved on some of the self-trimming wicks is causing hang-up on one site. The paper core wicks kept dropping carbon balls into the wax which looks ugly after a few burns.

I tested the entire LX line in my container tonight (LX8 - LX30). Even though I know some were two big and some were two small, for a beginner, it's good to see how they burn so I can easily identify them in the future.

I do have a question: at what point in a candles life would you expect to start seeing smoke and at what point would yout expect to start seeing soot deposits on the glass?

Well, I'm sure you sons have fully recovered by now.

Thanks for all the advice.

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Yes, everyone is better now. And Easter vacation is just around the corner!


Not quite sure I understand your question about when you start seeing smoke & soot. Hopefully you don't. I think any candle risks the possibility of smoke or soot if it's burned too long. How long depends on the width of the candle. Ideally a candle should be extinguished & the wick trimmed shortly after a full melt pool is acheived. It should be allowed to harden before relighting. I don't like my liquid wax deeper than 1/2". But that's just my own preference. It all just depends on the chemistry of the candle. BTW, I still haven't decided on a 'favorite' wick!

Lucy

[wakeylad]

Hi, Lucy:

Just to clarify, I meant the odd waft of smoke now and then and a light dusting of soot residue on the container. I saw a youtube video about how to clean out old candle jars so you can use them for storage after then candle is finished. These were the same containers as the 21oz Status Jars. They were the candles that you find rings of different values as the candle burns (mentioning now names). It looked like the container had a light dusting of soot on the side.

I've heared some people say that YC's candle's quality has diminished in recent years. I actually have two older ones (22oz net wet - wax). I cleaned them both up. One started to get a noticible dusting after the first burn. The other stayed clean. However, the clean one was the one I had to clean the most but it had been burned with one of those lamp-shade style covers in the past. However, as they're burning, I think they may be burning with more soot than mine. Also, I'm using the Status Jars and I hear they're hard to wick. I now a lot of people like to knock YC but, when you think about it, it was started by a young kid in his teens (or there abouts) and they had no internet or anything like that in those days. If I can get my candles to burn as good, I'll be happy. If better, I'll be exstatic.

Right now, when I take my notes, I count any wafts of smoke during a 10-second period. The wicks I'm testing now, are doing okay until the last quarter. Then I get either no smoke or 1 waft in ten seconds. I take notes every thirty mintues so I have six lines for a 3-hours period. I notice that some wicks smoke when they're first lit but then settle down to a clean burn. I have a YC burning also right now and that started with a big flame,some jumpiness and the odd pillar of smoke. It's settled down a lot and seems to be burning nicely. Also, I burn the candles in a well lit room and I use an LED flashlight when looking for the wafts of smoke. Obviously, when the lights are turned down you don't see any smoke. I guess that's more realistic of how a candle would actually burn. I've also seen something call "candle sparkle" especially made to clean soot off of the class that accummulates after a few burns.

My biggest concern right now is whether I'm setting my standards too high. Anyway, I did a lot of testing with the plain wax across most of my wick lines. The 4630, I've found, generally needs to be wicked down when adding FO. I've heard a that most people have to wick up but I've seen a lot of comment about this wax where they are also wicking down.

I just ordered 5lbs of the Spearming FO. I ordered 1lb previousl but I wasn't too keen on the smell. I was looking for more minty but this is more chewing-gummy minty smell. However, I has actually grown on me, it smells like fresh breath and, as I mentioned to someone else, maybe I could sell it to dentists. I'm going to use that to find the best wicks across each wick line. The zincs are burning good but you have to deal with the mushrooms. I guess it's a good reminder to trim the wicks.

Well, time to take some more notes.

Catch up with you soon.

Neil

[Buttermilk Hill Primitives]

Neil, you are way more vigilant than I have ever been! I'm smililing trying to imagine you searching for smoke with an LED light. By the time you are done, you will undoubtedly have the best-burning candles around! Isn't it funny how some scents you don't like at first grow on you? I've never been a floral lover, but I made some soap with an orange blossom fo & am really starting to like it. It is odd that you have to wick down with your wax when you add fo. I've always found the opposite. I've always had to wick up with dark colors & heavy fo's, but I've never used the 4630. I usually prefer soy or a soy blend. I recommend that you never try wooden wicks. I think they would drive you crazy! After they've been burnt for a bit, you need to extinguish & trim the wick or you will have smoke & soot like crazy. But let me say here that I have never used the WSP timber wicks. Mine we from a different supplier. I may try some from WSP & if I don't have better luck, I will be discontinuing the wooden wicks because I don't believe the average person who burns a candle takes the time to burn them exactly as directed. Who wants to keep extinguishing a candle so it won't smoke? And you mentioned Yankee Candles. Have you heard that the founder's son opened his own company know as Kringle Candles? His dad actually sold Yankee a few years back & is now helping his son. So much for competition!

Lucy

[wakeylad]

<p style="margin-left: 40px;">Lucy:</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;"> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;">The Kringle Candle information was very interesting. They even use the same containers that I&#39;m using although they refer to them as apothecary jars instead of status jars.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;"> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;">Hope you had a good weekend.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;"> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;">Neil</p>